Monday, February 13, 2006

The Five K's
Over the next week I would like to discuss the five K's: The original reason for them, what is understood of them now, certain fanaticisms about them, and what we can do about them. It could be more than one post per K, since more things could be brought up about the current K. Please feel free to comment on any posts, with positive and especially negative points. This will hopefully be a learning experience to all.

As the first K, I would like to discuss the kachhera. First, it contains the sexual temptations and reminds the wearer to think twice before taking them off (it is important to have the nala [drawstring] otherwise this value is almost gone). Also, they slightly hug the upper thigh - where the largest bone in the body is (it produces the most calcium). It is ideally made of pure white cotton, a pure color and natural fiber.
Some people say that none of the K's should ever be removed from the body. I can see where that is coming from, because then there is no limit to the leniancy of taking them off. But personally, I believe that it's all up to you. No one is going to be able to tell if you are wearing your kachhera under your pajama, or if you are growing you hair or wearing your kanga under your turban. I have heard that when some people change their kachhera, they take one leg out of the dirty ones, put it into the new ones, then take the other leg out of the old ones and put it in the new ones. There is nothing wrong with doing this, but I think it is a rediculous thing to force on other people, especially your kids. Because, if having one foot in - while you are changing - counts as having them on, then you could just have the kachhera on one leg all the time. Then, you could pull them up, and tie them around your leg, then you could just keep making them smaller until they were just a string around your leg. I know this is rediculous, maybe it is just my mind that can think up these creative thoughts, but if I can do it, there has to be at least one person in the future who could start this and corrupt the whole reason for the kachhera. It's totally fine to me to have a strong and strict discipline but if it becomes fanatic, then you are just becoming insecure about it. Yogi Bhajan once said "Fanaticism is insecurity taken to the next level" - I'm sure that's not exactly what he said, but along those lines. Anyway, I hope this is enough to start up a good discussion.

Sat Nam

105 Comments:

At 2:29 PM, Anonymous Steven Sanjeet Singh Sanghera said...

i think its silly , thow ... it isnt supposed to b taken off ... it good that your doing this koz ... i wana becom amrit dhari ...and i hav alot! to lurn still so thanx

im not amrit dhari yet

ooh and can i edit som pix from here ... i like do graphicaly type stuff ... n add me to hotmail if ya want to any one sanj19877@hotmail.com

 
At 6:44 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Right on. Fanaticism is ridiculous. Why do we want to remind ourselves from before we take off our kacheras? If it is because of sex, then why don't we want to have sex? If everything is written on our forehead like nanak said, then why is sex looked down upon...Wasn't it predestined? I've been thinking about this for a long time. Maybe you can enlighten me. :)

 
At 9:46 PM, Anonymous Singh said...

Sex is not looked down upon on if it is for procreation. But, when kaam (lust) takes you over it is bad. Sex is predestined but for procreation. Also, I do not think is fanatic to say that you should keep your kakkars on all the time. People who get married do not want to take off their ring to remind them that they are married. If I take amrit and marry my Guru then why should I remove my kakkars. Himmat Singh you made some very valid points and I am happy to see you looked at this from a logical perspective.

 
At 3:48 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you read the paratan rehatname it states how a Sikh should keep his/her Kakkars and that they should not remove them from their bodies. However as ignorant as we are, we do not take time out to read these rehatname because during the time the British they had taken over India and banned many things from our Gurdware (i.e Sarbloh Granth was banned from being read in the Gurdwara). Anyway back to the Kachera, there's a Sakhi about Bhai Jodha Singh Ji. He was a great devotee of Guru Gobind Singh and whenever Guru Ji called him he would go to him straight away. It was the day of his wedding and Guru Ji sent him a letter saying that he needed to see him straight away, he left his bride to go and see Guru Ji. Obviously the family were not pleased but he didn't care because it was Guru Ji. On his way to see Guru Ji he went past a prostitutes house...he thinks i've missed my night of passion with my wife just to see Guru Ji, so seen as i'm here i might as well get laid. He goes in to the prostitutes house and takes off his clothes, he comes to take his Kacherra off, but the nala won'nt budge. His night of passion basically goes down the drain, and when he goes to see Guru Ji, Guru Ji shouts at him and tells him that the reason for the Kachera was to stop one from committing adultery and that they should remain on our body at all times and never to be removed!
i hope this does clear up the fact that we must never depart from our Kakkar, there's another reason why Guru Ji gave us 5 Kakaar in particular..not many people know this so i will post this later.

 
At 4:01 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The names Singh and Kaur were given to us by Guru Ji, which mean lion and princess. Correct!
Okay, if you go to Rajastan today, you find names of people who take on the name Singh and Kaur, however, are not Sikhs. The reason: If somebody is going to be king or queen in Rajastan, they will take on the name Singh or Kaur, because it highlights the fact that they will succeed to the throne after the death of the current King or Queen. For example, after Queen Elizabeth dies then Charles will be King, so he would be given the name Singh.
On Vaisakhi 1699, Guru Gobind Singh decided to give us these names because he wanted to give everyone an equal status, but also a very HIGH status too. if you ask a rajastani, they will tell that their status of higher than a Brahmin. Guru Ji considered us all as Kings and Queens of Sikhi, as Guru Ji says: 'Raj Karega Khalsa', who will help rule the Khalsa? Us. Also when the King or Queen takes the throne they are given 5 things (one of them being a golden kara), hence why Guru Ji gave us the panj Kakaar!!
T

 
At 4:13 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The actual rehatnama written by Bhai Nand Lal Ji, which states how we are supposed to keep our Kakaar with us all the time.

NEVER ABANDON YOUR WEAPONS
REHAT
shasathreheen eih kabehoo(n) n hoee || rehithava(n)th khaalas hai soee ||
He who never abandons his weapon (Kirpaan). Recognise them as the disciplined and pure Khalsa. Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh

COMB YOU HAIR TWICE DAILY
REHAT
ka(n)ghaa dhono vakath kar paag chunai kar baa(n)dhhee ||
Comb your hair twice a daily and re-tie your turban each time your wear it.
Rehatnama Bhai Nand Laal Jee


THE FIRST REHAT (PRITHAM REHAT)
REHAT
prathham rehith yehi jaan kha(n)ddae kee paahul shhakae ||asoee si(n)gh pradhhaan avar n paahul jo leae ||
To drink the Ambrosial Nectar of the Khanda (Amrit) is the primary instruction for the Sikh. He who abandons all other initiations is truly a great Sikh.
Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh

KASHERAA - DO NOT REMOVE
REHAT
gliee sukee kaashh paae leae || kaashh dhae pou(n)achae dhaa sikh visaah naa karae
Whether the washed Kasheraa is wet or dry it should be put on. When removing the Kasheraa only one leg should be removed and put into the new Kasheraa.

MORNING - SIMRAN, ISHNAAN AND NITNEM
REHAT
vaahiguroo gur ma(n)thr s jaap kar eisanaan parrhai jap jaap ||||
Repeat the Mantra of the Guru 'Vaheguru'. Take your bath and then read your morning prayers. Rehatnama Bhai Nand Laal Jee


If we go against Guru Ji's words are we true Khalsas? Guru Gobind Singh ji states in his own Rehatmariyada: 'Rehat bina nehi Sikh kahave': one who against my rehat cannot call themselves a Sikh....
I do apologize if i have offended anyone in this comment or the other two i have posted. We are all learners of the Sikh faith and need to share these ideas and reflect on what Guru's baani says to us!!

 
At 5:52 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What someone may call fanaticism, i may call discipline and i dont find ppl who mainttain 5K Rehit as fanatics. The punj kakkars are a gift from Guru Ji & not mere objects. A gift from the emporer of all emporers should not be taken for granted. Khalsa is a dicipline line, this discipline includes Punj kakari Rehit.

BTW Bhai Nanad Lal's Rehitnama is accpeted COMPLETELY by the panth, there are many issues the creep up when dealing with Rehitnamas when when it comes down to Bhai Nand Lal; Damdami Taksal, AKJ, Nanaksar except this Rehitnama. Even the SGPC Rehit maryada (which can be seen as very lax) accepts Bhai Nana Lals writings, so i dont think anyone can challenge it.

So as 'anon' has stated the Kacherra is one leg off , one on, we cant challenge, because Bhai Nanad Lal Ji wrote exactly what Guru Gobind Singh Ji said.

Is not keeping AmritVela & noit missing is not fanticism?

if keeping kesh is fanaticism, then why not have the odd trim here or there. But kesh cannot be removed, so why the exception 4 the other 5K's

 
At 9:19 AM, Blogger Himmat Singh Khalsa said...

Great, I am happy that this is turning into an active discussion. For the sake of seeing if someone is responding to a message towards them, I would appreciate if everyone would select "other" (if you dont have a blogger account) so that you can type your name (or a nickname if you want) - instead of having a bunch of anons.
One anon, who signed "T", thank you for your quotes from the Bhai Nand Laal Ji Rehit Nama. Very helpful. I have one request though, for the future, please just post the quotes that are relevant to the subject. And repost the quotes when they are relevant. I am also curious to see if you translated these yourself. I am learning to interpret the Gurbani, and I have found some of your translations to be inacurate. We don't want to mislead anyone.
-
THE FIRST REHAT (PRITHAM REHAT)
REHAT
prathham rehith yehi jaan kha(n)ddae kee paahul shhakae ||asoee si(n)gh pradhhaan avar n paahul jo leae ||
To drink the Ambrosial Nectar of the Khanda (Amrit) is the primary instruction for the Sikh. He who abandons all other initiations is truly a great Sikh.
Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh

It doesn't say that it is the primary rehit of a Sikh. It doesn't say anything about a Sikh in the whole two lines. This is another thing I would like to discuss in the future - the difference between Sikh and Khalsa. But PLEASE do not start any discussion about this topic yet. There are a couple of other quotes I would like to question the translation of. And since there are some typos in the transliteration, I would like to ask you to please give me the link for this Rehit Nama. I Googled it and I didn't find anything in the first two pages. Thank you all for your input, keep up!
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

 
At 10:11 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Look at Sikhi 2 the Max
T

 
At 12:24 PM, Blogger Himmat Singh Khalsa said...

To anon (the one who posted right before me) sorry your post didn't refresh onto the blog before I posted my comment. I am sorry if I am not making myself clear. I am NOT criticizing anyone; I am just bringing logic and reason to the practices of the Khalsa.
Also, I know that in Punjabi, the word fanatic sometimes means disciplined (as I learned when I was there). In English though, it means: a person motivated by irrational enthusiasm (as for a cause); "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject"--Winston Churchill [Reference Dictionary.com]. I am not calling you this, as I do not know you. I just want you to know what it means. You should call yourself disciplined.
I have no doubt in Bhai Nand Laal Ji either; I just noticed that there were some typos and that the translation wasn't perfect. If I saw the original writings of him I wouldn't question them.
I have nothing against the 5 K's I'm just trying to clear things up. With the comparison of Kesh and Kachhera: Kesh is part of the body and is made by the body. Kachhera are human made and are not attached. If you can manage to always be wearing kachhera then you are very disciplined. In my personal view, I don't see any value of always having them around your leg. Please educate me.
Sat Nam

 
At 12:25 PM, Blogger Prabhu Singh said...

You can bet I'm going to pipe in on this conversation and I'm going to put my name on it too, because I'm secure in my belief!
Before I get started I would like to challenge two of the posters, who in their zeal for their personal beliefs, have made grievous errors in their posts.
The first extremely grievous error is the reference to the Sarbloh Granth. I must admit that I have not read the Sarbloh Granth, but I have had things related to me from others who have read it (or at least parts). My statement is equally as unqualified as the anonymous' statement, but what was relayed to me was that Sarbloh Granth only mentions 3 of the 5 k's. (A side note, the sakhi of Bhai Jodha Singh is also a little distorted, I would encourage others to read it from other sources).
Now on to the even bigger mistake:

" because Bhai Nanad Lal Ji wrote exactly what Guru Gobind Singh Ji said."

I'm sorry but this is one of the biggest mistakes I've ever seen from any Sikh. This statement has no qualification. You have nothing to prove this statement. Furthermore, this statement goes against just about every other tradition and fact. The writings of the Guru that were relayed to others were ALWAYS attributed the Guru, the rest were attributed to their original authors. If this was Guru Gobind Singh's rehit, it would be listed as such. Don't get side tracked and believe that I'm discarding Bhai Nand Lal Ji or his rehit, but understand the point about attributing writings to the Guru that are not the Guru's. Even if the words are sacred it is kachi bani, when attributing writings to the Guru that are not the Guru's.
The rehit of the nihangs is different than most other Sikhs. The rehit of every Sikh differs. The central tenets are the only thing that remain. These tenets are the clear direction of the Guru. People love to argue about this issue, which is a non-issue. No matter how much somebody respects Bhai Nand Lal Ji or Bhai Desa Singh, they were not Guru Gobind Singh! It is a simple fact. Just as it is a fact that many Cherdi Kala Gursikhs have lived since that time, and that many Sikhs have written a rehit. Unlike the huge error of attributing Bhai Nand Lal's works to Guru Gobind Singh, there is one thing that everybody knows and attributes to Guru Hargobind and that is that he declared the Akal Takht to be the temporal authority of the Sikhs. Are we supposed to believe that Guru Gobind Singh, could not institute Bhai Nand Lal's rehit in the Akal Takht? So that there was no confusion?

I've thought so much about this point. About never removing the 5 k's. In my meditation I've contemplated this issue for months. I have taken numerous hukams from the Guru. All of this amounts to my personal belief. Without the process of meditation and ardaas, and hukams I would not be a Sikh of the Guru. Instead I would either be a Sikh of my own mind or a follower of other's minds. This lengthy process by which I deliberate on issues is for my own personal development. It is about an intimate and loving relationship with the Guru. After doing an ardaas asking the Guru for the answer, and recieving the answer, I cannot then question the answer. I can only say that answer belongs to me. You have to ask the Guru for yourself. The fanatic who tells me that the Guru has given me the wrong answer is the fanatic that I will ignore. The Sikh who sees all people (not just Sikhs or Bhai Nand Lal Ji rehit-wale Sikhs) as equal, is the Sikh that I can embrace and learn from. The others are a side track.
Guru Gobind Singh gave us the 5 k's as gifts. He didn't give the Gatra as a new Janaou (sp?). I asked one friend who follows this strict rehit, what does the kanga do for you in the shower? He said if he dies at that instant he knows that the 5 k's are with him. This has great meaning and significance to him. To me I can only think of the passages of Gurbani relating how we came to this earth naked and we will leave naked.
Both opinions must be respected!
Unless you are one with the creator, it is time to stop telling other Sikhs (or other people) what to do. It is really time to stop misrepresenting the truth for the purposes of forcing your opinion.
Nobody can prove that any rehit belongs to Guru Gobind Singh. The only thing that makes a certain rehit puratan is that a certain Sikh follows it completely. Nobody on this forum is qualified to say which rehit is right for everybody. That belongs to God. Nobody on this forum is qualified to say which rehit is puratan, because nobody here is qualified to judge the actions of the creator in creating the different rehits that exist today. Everything is within God's will including the Akal Takht's rehit.

 
At 1:00 PM, Blogger Angad Singh said...

gur fateh dharam,

thanks for bringing up this discussion

Well I read through the comments and its nice to see people coming in from different view points...

my two cents worth..

i have not read any of the rehyat namas and its not that i dont believe in them..but i tend not to blindly follow translations, cause at times they have been in accurate as dharam mentioned. In addition a lot has be distoreted..for example if you read bhai gur das ji's var number 41..peeo phaul khandey ka..how did it come there..bhai gur das ji died during the time of the 6th guru or 7th guru..he was not around during 1699.

I just have some comment/questions that have shaped my personal rehyat.

during veshaki 1699 a lot of people were blessed with armit. at that time did Guru Gobind Singhj Ji have enough kacheras and Kangas and Karas and Kirpans to give the pople..or did each one of them already have all their kakars..

..i have reason to believe that they got all their kakars only after a while...

..the other thing relating to a kachera..what is more imporant..how u wear a kachera? or the fact that you wear a kachera?

i have a friend in whoes family everyone wears kacheras so they have color coded kacheras to solve the problem..blue for 1, pink for another etc..

and when one tries to change from a wet kachera to a dry one..the take off frm one leg and put a fresh one on the other leg..if yr an aged person yr gonna have a really tough time and if a small kid is also likely to fall.

also wht happens when u run out of kacheras..as u dont have a fresh one..the only one u have wear it and bathe..then u gonna walk arnd withought one?..a guy once told me he wud hang it and make sure he is holding it while bathing..aint that the same as taking it off..

the other thing being hygine issue..kids many not clean their genetial area well while bathing with kacheras on..

also coming to the topic of intimacy..when couples get intimate ..where does the kachera go..

wht ever little i understand about sikhism..is that it speaks of love ..love between you and god..and in love how can their be fantasim..my kakars and the gifts my guru gave me..i try to take care of them to the best of my ability...

guru ang sang!

angad singh

 
At 2:41 PM, Blogger Himmat Singh Khalsa said...

Waheguru!!
I really enjoy all of the questions and comments Angad Singh. I have thought of some of these too. From these examples you can see how exceptions keep getting bent: From one leg in one leg out, to take them off and be holding them in one hand. This is exactly what I meant, thank you for giving an example. Again, I am not saying the one leg in one leg out method is bad, just when you say it is part of rehit, then it gives people ideas on how to bend it. I think Guruji just gave it to us as our responsibility and we can say: "yeah, I am always wearing all my k's", or "I wear all my k's 90% of the time. Whatever, it is up to you.
Sat Nam.
PSI will probably post the next K tomorrow

 
At 7:13 PM, Blogger Palvinder said...

waheguroo ji ka khalsa waheguroo ji ki fateh..angad veerji..and himmat veerji..morakh like me would like to share something..how much do u belive in gursikhs??how much u belive in the time of ppl of the gurus time?how much of prem u have for ur gurus??well..i would like to answer some of the questions asked..well angad veerji u said asked or say not sure ..that when the 1st amrit sanchar was held the abhlakhis didnt had thier kakars with them and they got them later..our gurus..or the other historian wasnt stupid enuf tht they said Guru Gobind Singh ji Maharaj he himself dreesed the punj pyarey..not to say wear them the khcera or anything..but guru ji gave them the gifts...then Guru ji himself tied the keski on them.. guru hargobind ji gave kirpan...olden india days used wodden comb..kechara was the only pants tht was there in india..i didnt see any undewear which would have been there...so the kakars were there for long...

the thing tht how u wear the kechara isnt important i would say..but to think how u love ur kakars rather then having them...are u a tyiar be tyiar gursikh??as per guru sahib said to be??ur changing and the next thing u know some one peeping on u..the reason guru ji gave the kechara was not for luct..its beyond tht..its to cover ur private parts..think beyond tht...

and if u said its hard to change ur kechara in this way..well have u tried it? or are u saying it for fun..its sad to see ppl think smater than other ppl...i think that if it wasnt true..it wouldnt be such a BIG issue if u have ur kakars with u all time!...its so so silly to see ppl having doubts on this...

i wouldnt want to write much...as it would be of vain ppl read not following..but i personally..and puratanly..panthly do agree with the rehatnama...
bhul chuk maaf jio..
waheguroo ji ka khalsa waheguroo ji ki fateh!

 
At 9:12 PM, Anonymous Gurpreet Singh said...

the most important thing in all of this is, whose sikhs are we? If we call ourselves guru gobind singh jees sikhs than we MUST obey guru gobind singh jee's hukams. Whether its followed blindly or not, a hukam is a hukam and for a sikh MUST be followed.

GUru Gobind singh je says....

"The following five K’s are the mark of Sikhi.These five can never be parted from the body. Kara, Kirpan, Kashera, Kangha, recognise these as four of them.The fifth is Kesh, without which the other four are useless. There are also four H’s which must be avoided. Understand this without any doubt, no lies have been told. Hukka, taking tobacco. Hajamat, removing of hair. Halalo. Haram, adultery (sexual relationships outside of marriage). These are the four H’s. Dyeing of beards, and the wearing of mehndi are strictly forbidden."

i would post the gurmukhi if i knew how to, but i dont. So, as you can see guru sahib tells us that none of these can ever be parted from the body, now if we are to respect guru sahibs hukams, we must respect this one as well, otherwise what types of sikhs would we be?

 
At 10:18 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Okay, everyone is saying it is wrong to remove hair, wrong to have sex, wrong NOT TO HAVE ON KACHERAS!? Wrong nt to comb your hair twice a day. Why the hell is it wrong. I am a long haired singh, and I don't do any of these things for my own reasons. WHY THE HELL DO YOU DO THEM BESIDES WHAT GURU JI SAID!? Himmat, you are exempt from this question because you are not doing this as a dogma, I can't say the same for the rest of the anons. IF YOU DO SOMETHING JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE SAYS SO: GURU, GOD or WHOEVER. what is the purpose. We are also householders, follow a dogma and you will be clueless like a helpless dog. Why do you do this? Tell me why, with real applications to life.
I am the same anon as the 2nd one.

 
At 1:31 AM, Blogger Angad Singh said...

Gur Fateh Ji!

Now this is getting so interesting.

Please Note..I am not here to make fun of people or the practises..I just wonder what is their reasoning behind this..

Palvinder Singh Ji..

Kakars may have been present then or they may not have been present..we cant tell for a fact..

as for tyarr be tyaar..well tell me when you fly dont you take off yr kirpan and porbably wear a small one arnd yr neck..if tts acceptable to you..then why touch a kachera or holding in yr hand and bathing is not?


and yes i have tried it and nearly broken my face in the bargain..it has happened with a few of my friends as well...esp when you dont have the luuxary of your own toilet..ie in samelans etc..

Gurpreet Singh Ji..

yes I am guru gobdind singh ji's sikh..can you tell me ..and dont give me translations from the net...where guru gobind singh ji has said no kakars to be removed ever.. please tell me where i can get to read the rehatnama as it was ..i dont trust publications..a moorak like me can identify the kind of glaring errors they make..

the other thing i would like to point out..it may not totally relate to the topic but what is the authenticity of the rehatnamas..

..if guru gobind singh said some thing why do we have different versions today...simple reason is distortion..and once some one told me and i dont think i will every forget..if you are confused about an issue..ask the guru for help from your heart and he will give you the answer...the answer I believe can come in any form..so when we speak of the various rehat namas and the 21 rehyat maryadas..we ought to ask guru sahib for the answer..and from how i see it our gurus very very practical people..

Moving on to why people probabaly wore kacheras and bathe.

1. sikhs were warriors often out in the jungle..so they bathed in the open..and thus they wore their kachera and bathe

2. people had little knowledge of personal hygine..so if they took off their kachera and bathe chances were that they would wear the same one again.

today most of the time we bathe in the privicay of our own bathrooms secondly we know never wear a unclean undergarment.

other than that I believe, Sikhi is very personal, it between you and god..you and your khasam..how i handle this relation is very different from how someone else does..and as kabir ji says..

Apne Karam Ki Ghat May Kya Janu Mai Kya Janu Baba Re!

Guru Ang Sang Hove!

Angad

 
At 1:58 AM, Blogger Palvinder said...

wjkk wjkf..well angad veerji..and others actually..u guys always ask this question where is it written..now i ask where is it written u can take off ur kakars as its up to??there are documents that say u have to keep ur kakars and others with u all time..i havent come to any of the rehatnama that says u can either just take them off...kakars are like ang...

angad veerji...u said that when we go for a flight ..we take the kirpan off...well one thing to be taken note..we live this by the law of the world..not the guru..we follor this law because we have to go to another destination...but if u follow the gurus law...u have to keep them with u all time..

sikhi is personal when it comes to spiritual..but when it comes to rehat..its to follow..and the rehat maryada u follow today is becuase of the rehatnama..if there wasnt any rehatnamas...i dont know if i had to take amrit to be a sikh...and i should say fateh when i see another sikh!?

and himmat veerji...u asked where in the pritam rehat thing it says that its the primary rehat line...pritam is there which literaly means 1st..like in the ardas pritam bhegauti simaria...and there is a singh word in the line..which refers to a sikh...becuase men and women are equal so y think more??

well ppl tell this stuffs are fanatism...i say ppl who dont follow them are guys who dont love kakar enuff..

and angad veerji...u said u tried the method..i dont know about u..but im a lil tall..and n a lil fat i guess..ahah..well the thing is i dont know how u changed ur kechara?its so easy..the wet one just let it down..then u get the dry one ready to be worn..nothing hard...nothing is hard if u want to do it..its all up to us..

its so clear...the rehatnamas are written for a reason..not just for fun!and there is a reason y thy say keep ur kakars with u all time..i ask..y do u think so much...y cant just follow??y do we be so wiser then the perfect one...this sikhs who wrote this was not just any sikh..they were special ppl of guru ji!!remember that..
bhul chuk maaf!
wjkk wjkf!

 
At 3:28 AM, Blogger Angad Singh said...

Palvinder Singh Ji..I must say you have made some valid points..

1stly. to clarify..i did not say i take my kakars off and walk arnd the country side..my question to gurpreet singh ji and others who quoted rehatnamas was to please point me to them..

As to why i question..if i did not question myself on wht did the guru s instruct us when it came to kirtan or wht did the guru's instruct us when it came to say treatment of women..if i had never questioned myself i dont believe i would be on this path at all...

Also i would have obyed the order blindly if all this was mentioned in the Guru Granth Sahib..the guru instructed us to sing in the nirdharit raag and i have with god's grace over a period of 2 years learn to appreciate kirtan done with the guru's maat.

..I am sure Guru Gobind Singh Ji had to foresight and for a particular reason did not included a number of things in the Guru Granth Sahib including his own bani and the bani of great sikhs like bhai nandlal ji etc..

the rehyat namas are important no doubt...rehytnamas are like guidelines but they in my opnion are not had and fast rules..

..now if you look at SGPC maryada..it says if an amrit dhari associates with a sikh who has cut his hair..he becomes patit..tell me palvinder a lot of us have siblings who have cut thier hair..so do we shun then or should be love them and bring them to the guru..

dam dami taksal maryada tells us that men should only wear round turbans and women should only make a goothni..tell me..during the time of the 10th guru dumallas were there there was no keshki..or round turban henna..

and your belief that puratan style is authentic..the let me point out some things..

akj way of doing things is supposedly considered to be the most authentic way of practising sikhis..m not poking fun at anyone..read with an open mind..

akj kirtan style is 1st not in raag as the guru mentioned. 2ndly its not done on a string insturment a vaja does not have the capability to bring out the effect a stringed instrument can...vaja is a german insturment brought in by the british ..our guru's never used vajas..

they also talk about keeping a biebek..as in not eating unless food is cooked by an amritdhari..tell me when baba nanak travelled u think he had his own cook with him..or when guru gobind singh ji was fight wars his sikhs had their own cooks with them..


thus my only request is to look at rehtnamsa and rehytmaryada and analyze it..wht it really says..go below the surface..see the underlying message

..u say it was written by sikhs of the guru..arent u and i sikhs of the guru!..in addition like i pointed out the glaring error in bhai gurdas ji's vaar let me also tell you the famous bachitar natak and deh shiv bhar mohe hey..in the dasam granth are not title sri mukh vaak pathsahi dasvi..it means scholars are not sure if its these 2 compositions have actually written by the 10th master.

Also going back into history..for a major part of the 19th centruy sikhs lived in jungles fighting wars. in addition..when the sikhs joined the british army, the hindu mahants controled harminder shaib it was only around 1920 that the sikhs were able to get the control of the gurudawaras..

in the harminder shaib itself..these mahants introduced idol worship etc..and scholars have reason to believe that some of our literature was also distorted by them..

also it is only some time ago that a standard version of the Dasam granth was complied. In the earlier times, there were numerous copies and this has been the result of distortion by our own people and those outside the religion..

it the the result of the distortion that i dont take everyword that is not in the sri guru granth sahib ji blindly and when i question i ask my guru wht he as to say on the issue..

back to the kachera..

you pull the kachera down and then clean yrself and put on a new one..aint that as good as not wearing one while in the shower?

also yr bani and yr other spiritual practises part of yr rehyat..i believe it is..


guru ang sang!

 
At 6:29 AM, Blogger Palvinder said...

wjkk wjkf veerji..well if u would like to know more aout bebekism..plz add me on msn..palvinder88@hotmail.com..i would glad to enlighten u with gurmat...

and about taksal...i dont know about them..but keski was practised in the gurus time..and hanji akj does not do raag kirtan..can u give me a qoute in Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that says we have to or should least sing in raag..i have some other tuk from gurbani..which i think guru maharaj said..the raag is not so important??just trying to do veechar with u veerji..

and if u want to know how i change my kechara(which i think is lol..funny..sachi)...well just add me ill tell u..but wht i know wht u said i put down wash up then wear it back..its totally not the way i do..
veerji u talk about money..well rehat says so..but wht am i to do..my karam is such that im not born in a gursikh family..but i do pray one day my family be in guru jis feet..and veerji..being patit..i think guru ji janey jan..nothing to say about that..

basiclly veerji...would love to hear from u on msn..i dont wana waste my time actually..cause i think alot of us here know whts right and whts wrong..

bhul chuk khima..
wjkk wjkf!

 
At 8:57 AM, Blogger Angad Singh said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 9:03 AM, Blogger Angad Singh said...

palvinder singh ji..as to why is it to be done in raag..i suggest you read the following articles..

http://musicalframework.blogspot.com/

2nd article there..

http://singhangad.blogspot.com/2005/08/hook-line-and-sinker.html

http://singhangad.blogspot.com/2005/11/lakh-kushiyansignificance-of-rahao.html

Also I dont remeber speaking about money..and thanks for your offer on enlightening a moorakh like me..i ll contact you when i think its best..

http://singhangad.blogspot.com/2005_10_23_singhangad_archive.html

 
At 10:19 AM, Blogger Prabhu Singh said...

I think it's about time I pipe in again. I'm like the uncle on these discussion sites (since I'm older than all of you). It seems many of you are not doing research, and in your zeal are again misrepesenting things. Let me say it one more time:
DO NOT ATTRIBUTE WORDS TO THE GURU UNLESS THEY BELONG TO THE GURU!!!!
Please never ask the question 'how much does someone love the Guru? Ask yourself that question. If the answer is that you love the Guru than learn to recognize all of humanity as one. Do not believe that your practices constitute 'the only' Gurmat.
Before I write more, let me tell you that I accept all of you as my brothers and I respect you and your beliefs. I don't have respect for intolerence and I don't have patience for distortions. As such my writings may seem harsh, but these are serious issues, at the core of what we believe to be sacred.
First to Gurpreet Singh. I can't understand why Dam Dami Taksal website has the rehit that you quote attributed to Guru Gobind Singh and the Dasam Granth. This is a huge mistake and I truly hope that Dam Dami Taksal fixes this because those lines do not come from the Dasam Granth! This is a HUGE ERROR strait from the webmaster or whoever is behind this. Also the quote from the Siri Guru Granth Sahib listed under kesh on that website is totally incomplete which completely changes the meaning to mean what they are reporting. I really worry about Sikhs using this website with these unfortunate errors.
http://www.damdamitaksal.com/lit_rehat_13.htm
To Palvinder
The entire Siri Guru Granth Sahib was written in raag, how much more obvious can it be? Nothing is written about eating from Amrit-Dharis in any of the Granths. Why argue one which has no support and disgard the other which is fact?
Who is teaching you this stuff, I want to know? This dangerous and fanatic attitude is really popular with the teenagers these days and it is a bad trend.
Palvinder you wrote:
"i would glad to enlighten u with gurmat"
What does this mean? You do not even respect raag and are practicing eating with discrimination (against langar) and you want to elighten others with Gurmat?
Let me just tell you that you will know Gurmat when the Guru (not your fanatic influences) has given this blessing to you. When you have humility and compassion then we will know that you can enlighten others. For now you can only offer your opinion without fact.
Palvinder I don't mean to attack you, whatever offense you find in my words is an attack on your ego. Reply to this and Angad Singh without anger, with fact, with compassion, with acceptance, and then we will recognize how great you are.
You are the great son of Guru Gobind Singh! You are still a Sikh (learner) though, like the rest of us. "Gursikha Gursikh seva layee" these are the words of Bhai Gurdas. Sikhs of the Guru inspire other Sikhs of the Guru to do seva. This is far more important than arguing points which cannot be proven. Your passion for your way of life, is blinding you to the fact that there are other ways of life, including for Sikhs. Sikhs must recognize all of humanity as one, these are the words of Guru Gobind Singh.

 
At 12:17 PM, Anonymous Singh132 said...

You can give 101 examples to some people and they will not accept it. Only Guru Sahib can convince them.

Angad Singh,

"dam dami taksal maryada tells us that men should only wear round turbans and women should only make a goothni."

Where are you getting this from? It says that NOWHERE. You make broad statements that have no basis in fact. This is a lie. Many Taksali Singhs tie dumallas and others tie regular dastaars. Many Taksali Bibis wear dastaars. It is not anywhere in their maryada.

Then you say "akj kirtan style is 1st not in raag as the guru mentioned. 2ndly its not done on a string insturment a vaja does not have the capability to bring out the effect a stringed instrument "

Is it in the Akhand Kirtani Jatha Maryada that keertan isn't to be done in raags? Is it in the maryada that string instruments shouldn't be used. No. Many famous Jatha Singhs were known for Raags like Bhai Darshan Singh Dilruba (also master of the Dilruba and nicknamed that).

Then you say,

"tell me when baba nanak travelled u think he had his own cook with him..or when guru gobind singh ji was fight wars his sikhs had their own cooks with them.."

Guru Nanak made thousands of Sikhs he ate the food they prepared. If all food is teh same, then why didn't he eat from Malik Bhago? It was quality wise and nutritionally better food?

The most authentic source for Sikh History, Bhatt Vehis tell that Guru Gobind Singh refused to eat the food prepared by Bhai Dalla, the ruler of Bathinda and said Sikhs would have their own langar.

But on a practical level, do you think eating food prepared by smokers, adulterers, fornicators, liars, cheats, etc. is spiritually healthy? Is it chardi kala?

The langar is open for all to eat. But not just anyone can prepare it. Only those that are Gursikhs who can give it the vibration of naam and bani. If this is discrimination, next you'll say that it's discrimination to not let non-amritdharis do amrit sinchaars.

And just for Prabhu Singh, here's a repeat of proof that all puratan Sikhs never parted from their kakaars. Didn't take them off for some diving or skiing.
______________
head or our seva at any given moment. Do you think you are tyaar bar tyaar standing naked in the shower with not even a kacherra to cover yourself up?

Are you tyaar-bar-tyaar when your kakaars are off? Simple question. No.

Prabhu mentioned that only some Jathas keep this rehit. Among these Jathas are Akhand Kirtani Jatha, Damdami Taksal, All Nihang Dals and I know that at the Takhats (SGPC maryada) they tell you that you cannot be apart even during a shower. Which Jathas are there that allow you to separate from your kakaars?

I think it boils down to an issue of love. These are gifts given to us by our Guru. Do you love that gift enough to keep it with you at all times and at all costs?

Bhai Amarjeet Singh Babbar was stripped of his kakaars and after that point, despite the agonising torture he faced, he refused to even drink a drop of water until his kakaars were returned to him. He was martyred during the torture. Jathedar Gurdev Singh Kaunke when he was arrested, was ordered to take off his kakaars for interrogation. He refused. Swarn Ghotna, the interrogator dreaded across Punjab for being a butcher, put his hand on Jathedar jee's gatra to take it off. Jathedar Gurdev Singh grabbed him by the throat and said, "You dog of the Brahmins! You don't know the value of these to me!". It took 9 officers to remove Jathedar Sahib and he was then tortured to death.

These Singhs gave their lives but wouldn't be separated from their kakaars by their own will. And here we are taking off our kakaars to go for a swim or take a shower.

Who showed the love?

Taking off our kakaars is a kurehit. It isn't a bujjer kurehit, but it is indeed a kurehit. Willingly taking them off requires that we present ourselves before the Punj Pyaaray for forgiveness.

Countless Gursikhs have found a way to keep their kakaars at all times including work, sleep and bathing. Are you saying your situation is so unique that you can't manage? I have slept with my kirpan for 8 years. Haven't injured myself yet.

You can follow the example of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh, Baba Gurbachan Singh jee Khalsa, Jathedar Gurdev Singh Kaunke or Bhai Amarjeet Singh Babbar.

When bathing, a Sikh will first wash his/her hair. The kirpan doesn't get wet and the keski is tied to the waist. After washing the kesh, the keski is tied back on and the kirpan is tied to the dastaar. Doesn't really cause any problem. Even old rehitnamas say that a Sikh should not remove the kacherra at once and should be changed one leg at a time. Washing with it on is a question that is so obviously answered, I'm not going to bother replying to it.

These Singhs I mentioned would not give up their kakaars under any circumstances. They could have just said "oh well, I have no control on the situation, let it go" But they didn't they chose death over it. I really doubt "It is the same love in those instances as those who didn't make it through." if someone is taking off their kakaar to bathe.

If your kirpan is on a gatra or if it's nearby when sleeping makes a BIG difference. I can easily walk up to you when you're asleep and take your kirpan away. A kirpan on a gatra cannot be taken away without disturbing the person wearing it. The person with his kakaar is "tyaar bar tyaar" for any call to battle but the person lying there without it is NOT.


Question: when at darbar sahib, do you see people leaving their kirpans by the side of the sarovar? No. They wear them. Why? Because they know it is wrong and will look bad on them if they do that (even if they do it at home).

Rehitnama References:

Bhai Nand Lal Jee's Tankhanama states;

"He who abandons the Guru and follows another, who sleeps at night naked from the waist down, whoh engages in intercourse while naked, or who bathes while naked [let him be regarded as a grevious offender" verse 42.

Rehitnama Bhai Desa Singh

"Sustain within your man, compassion, obedience to your dharam and tap. Never be separated from your kachh or your kirpan. In a fight never turn your back or flee from the field of battle" verse 15.

Bhai Daya Singh Rehitnama:

This is for after bathing, how to change the kacherra:

"For changing his kachhera, he should have alength of cloth measureing 2.5 gaz" (what would be the need of this if he could just take it on or off. All Singhs who keep their kacherra at all times need this cloth to change their wet to dry)

also

"If a Khalsa bathes without a kachh or with his kes uncovered instead of h aving a turban properly tied, he should incur a tankhah..." (verse 53)

There is no doubt that Guru Sahib's precious kakaars cannot be removed willfully by a Sikh. If they are, he should appear before the Punj Pyaaray for a tankhah.

Who would willfully want to be apart from Guru Sahib's gifts?


or

You can follow the advice of some guy posting on an internet forum.

Your choice.

 
At 1:12 PM, Blogger Angad Singh said...

singh132..

my comment on the taksal maryada is there on their website look up the rehyat maryada section you ll find it..same goes for SGPC..

for akj i dont know wht their maryada states..all i know is they, who claim to be most authentic dont even do kirtan properly..approx.95% of SGGS is in Raags..kirtan is our main from of worship.we are the only religion in which singing hyms is the primary form of worship...that is not done in accordance with the guru's maat..i dont know wht more to say..about how authentic akj beliefs or practises are..

yes everyone has their own ways..the point some of us here are trying to make is ..your beleif is yrs...dont force it on another person..u wanna wear a kacher and bathe or a turban and bathe please go ahead..dont force it on me..

also you say having yr kakars yr tayar be tayar..right..tell me..yr kirpan which is a kakar..do you know how to use it..cause its a weapon and if you dont know how to use it it becomes a liability...just cause u wear a kachera and bathe dont make u tayar be tayar...

coming to langar..guru nanak dev ji did no eat at bhai lalo's house to prove a point that he was rich cause of bad deads..

and if some one wants to do lanagar sewa who are you or who am i to stop them and say tu amrit nai chakey u can do sewa..sikhism dont believe in any sort of discrimination..and to yr argument about amritdharis being pure etc..come singh ji..we all know how many guys are there who take amrit were bana and then go messing ard..claiming they are amrit dhari..

i happen to be one who is in love with history..i wanted to be an academic in this field at one point..

now when we look at history we have to look at the source..how reliable is it..

where did u get the rehyat namas..u tell me so and so website..i think Prabhu Singh Ji has pointed out clearly the kind of glaring errors on the taksal website..same goes with books published by these organizations..

and for all yr rehtnamas..i guess i have written enough about the authenticity..

you talk about the various brave singh's

now wht m going to say may offend you ..but u gotta read with an open mind..else dont bother..

do you have audio recordings of jathedar ji cursing the brahim police officer...no..where you there..no..was there a written account of this..no..so how can u be sure this happened..he may have just put up a fight thats all like the numerous other sikhs..

today we say it took 9 guys..tomorrow i ll say 19 and thats how history gets distorted..

as to how much i love my guru ..i guess thats between myself and my guru and as much as i dont like to put down people i must say you are NO ONE ..ABSOLUTELY NO ONE to comment on how much I love my guru..

sikhi is between me and god..i dont need a person to help me out..i have shabad guru to help me..

Prabhu Singh Ji could you please ask your close friend Parvindder Singh to speak a little bit out the authenticty and the underlying meaning of the rehyat namas.

Guru ang Sang Hove!

 
At 1:23 PM, Anonymous Singh132 said...

Angad Singh,

find me the clause in the Taksal maryada. Fact is that Sant Kartar Singh used to wear a regular dastaar. Fact is that Baba Gurbachan Singh's Singhni and Baba Kartar Singh's Singhni used to wear dastaar. You don't know what you're talking about.

You have no basis or evidence to say just anyone can do seva in langar. I can provide lots if you want it. If Guru Granth Sahib tells us not to do sangat with manmukhs, do you think it allows us to eat their food?

Where did I get the rehitnamas from? Not from any website. From Piara Singh Padam's book and McLeod's book. You can say one rehitnama was fake but are you going to say they are all fake just because you don't have the guts to admit you're wrong?

Then you say,

"do you have audio recordings of jathedar ji cursing the brahim police officer...no..where you there..no..was there a written account of this..no..so how can u be sure this happened..he may have just put up a fight thats all like the numerous other sikhs.."

Do you have audio/video recordings of Baisakhi 1699? How about Chamkaur Sahib Saka. You must have a DVD of the Sirhand Saka too (the cartoon doesn't count). Just because I don't have a video recording means that it didn't happen? What a ridiculous argument.

 
At 1:44 PM, Blogger Prabhu Singh said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 2:04 PM, Blogger Prabhu Singh said...

"Where did I get the rehitnamas from? Not from any website. From Piara Singh Padam's book and McLeod's book. You can say one rehitnama was fake but are you going to say they are all fake just because you don't have the guts to admit you're wrong?"

Dude! McLeod is a Christian missionary, who has made serious distortions and purposeful offenses towards Sikhs and our history!
You talk about manmukhs! Give me a break!
Read Asa di Var and talk to us about food that that is jutta. Every thing is jutta. Unless you grow your own food and do your own rituals then every food you eat has come from the preparation of somebody else. If you get your food from the market, you're getting food that's been perpared by non-Amrit-Dhari Sikhs. They're people though! Can you imagine that? The 'sinners' are also people?
You want to change the vibration of food? Pray over it. It doesn't matter who makes the food or where it came from, what matters is you thank God for the opportunity to eat!
To Angad:
That was a very enlightened post, I can tell from your humility and compassion that you have the spirit of Sikhi in you.
I asked Parvinder Singh about issues of rehit. He kind of laughed, and then said how little it matters. He wouldn't discriminate against anybody. Our time together was a time of mutual learning and sharing of what we both find inspirational in the Sikh Dharma. It's only when I get on the internet that I even pay credence to these ridiculous arguments. I don't think I want to participate in these meaningless interactions any more.
Sorry Himmat for your blog turning into a place of slander! It seems some people are willing to accept all people as one, despite their rehit. While others are simply here to make their rehit sound like the only pure and right one.
The relationship between a Sikh and the Guru is personal, it's not open for the interpretation of others. The Guru's rehit is puratan the rest come from the experience of individual Sikhs. Their status as saints or contemporaries of the Guru don't make their personal practices any more valid than any other Sikh.

 
At 2:15 PM, Blogger Himmat Singh Khalsa said...

Sorry Prabhu, it says I deleted your post. I had it in my email though, so I'll repost it for you:


Prabhu Singh:
What is "tyaar bar tyaar?"
Are these the words of the Guru?
NO!

How much do you want to bet the kirpan in a gatra can be removed while sleeping? There's no way you can remove the kirpan under my pillow without waking me up!
I didn't mention anything about jethas here, you're carrying that from another discussion.
How dare you ask who has love for their kakkars? Why should anybody answer to you. I answer to the Guru. The Guru has guided me not to injure myself with my kirpan. If I want to protect my kirpan while I dive and go swimming that's my right. You love your kirpan so much that you've turned it into the janeou. Your naked body is what came into this world as a perfect form from God.
The fanatics can shout as loud as they want. I just ask one of these people to come live in my shoes. Try to experience what I've gone through in my life. These people are so insecure in their beliefs they won't even last a second! I dare you, just come to my neighborhood and see if your fanaticism lasts.
It's easy when your sitting behind a computer in your parents house in Canada with all your buddies backing you up, to act like you have all the answers and say there is no other way. It's a whole other thing when you live in the real world and you help people who have real problems. It's totally different when you're surrounded by people who work hard just to feed themselves, people who have no education and in extreme poverty turn to drugs to escape.
Sajjan the thug became a Sikh of Guru Nanak despite having KILLED people.
You judge people who do drugs or have sex or do anything else you consider immoral. Who the hell are you? When did you become God and decide that your offenses (like slandering Sikhs) are not as bad as being a drug addict? Who cares the weight of another persons 'sin,' in comparison to our own mistakes?
I want to invite all "tyaar bar tyaar" Sikhs to come live with me. Come see if that's what makes a Sikh or not. Come see if you can manage to not offend everybody nearby with your judgements. Come see if you know what seva is. If you can serve all without discriminations. The things you consider sin are the daily practices of almost everybody I know. Should I condemn them all to hell or have compassion?
Come see if you can swim in a lake without bringing disrespect (via rust to, or loss of) your kirpan. Come see if you can play sports (with full effort like a soldier would) and not get injured by your kirpan. How can you possibly play football or frisbee where people hit you or you dive while wearing a kirpan? I was a gymnast for 15 years and I landed on every body part I have at some point and if a kirpan had ever been attached to any of those parts I may have lost any number of those parts. I used to play frisbee with my kirpan until my legged narrowly escaped a serious stab wound and I came away with severe bruising. I vowed never to disrespect my kirpan in that way again!
I don't know why I even engage with people who are not interested in growing. This is not a discussion. This is a shouting match.
Can you believe how arrogant some people are? They tell you that their way is the only way. They use words like puratan, they refer to people in history that they claim acted in the same way. They are fanatic about their beliefs which don't even originate with the Guru!
Come and be in the minority and see if you can survive with such intolerance. Where I come from the people are proud of everything, their race, culture and religion. Tell them they're wrong and their likely to harm (beat or kill) you. Accept them for who they are and offer assistence when needed and they will be your family.
What the hell is the purpose of being a Sikh if you can't accept even other Sikhs without judging their rehit? This discussion should be about sharing which rehit resonates with the individual Sikh, not about who's rehit is perfect and why others are wrong for not following that. I'm just really upset that people are judging the love and devotion of other people. Even the Gurus in their infinite wisdom, the embodiment of love and devotion, did not do this. Read about Bhagat Dhana and Bhagat Tirlochan whose writings are in the Siri Guru Granth Sahib. Love and devotion by a simple farmer towards a stone (who he believed to have God) allowed him to realize God.
WaheGuru forgive me, I have written this post in anger. I pray that the judgements stop so that we can just be together as Sikhs of the Guru without distinctions based on small differences.

 
At 2:25 PM, Blogger Himmat Singh Khalsa said...

Sorry everyone for my lack of involvement in this discussion. I have been at college all morning reading all the new comments in between classes trying to catch up with the current standing. I am now ready to put in my input.

I would like to make some rules for the "Five K's" posts. My goal in these posts is not to get people to argue (and clearly that is not doing much good). I would like to mainly bring out the practical meanings of the 5 K's. So from now on, please, no references to anything - SGGS, any Granths, any articles, any Gianis. There are so many corrupt translations - I have seen a flaw in almost every one that has been posted on this post. I want this to be completely OUR discussion. I know that I said that I wanted to discuss other things, but now we are talking about OUR beliefs and OUR experiences. I hope this will help with these discussions. And I would also like to request people to be the least judgemental as possible. i.e. If you have a personal opinion about something say that it is, do not state it as a fact - if it is your experience, that is different; Please read other comments with compassion and an open mind - see where they are coming from.

All the best to these posts and I hope everyone learns something.

Sat Nam

 
At 2:28 PM, Blogger Himmat Singh Khalsa said...

Also, I will not post the next K today. I am busy with other things. I will be keeping an eye on the comments though.

 
At 3:44 PM, Anonymous Harkamal Singh said...

Dear Prabhu Singh
I have no words for the beautiful thoughts you have shared with us. The words were not filled with anger like you humbly said but instead with power! All these issues of how to wear a kachera, different rehits, wearing the 5 k's at all times etc....to me is ones more personal choice, it is ones sharda... If they feel doing things a certain makes them feel closer to the Guru let them do so. Gurbani tells us in these plain words that "Hum nahi changey, Bura nahi koi" That we shouldn't consider ourselves good nor should we consider anybody else bad.

I know Himmat, you said not to mention any lines from the SGGS but I think this line is very simple and straight forward so I hope that no one gets upset by this.
Chardi Kala!

 
At 4:10 PM, Anonymous Gurpreet Singh said...

himmat singh jee, notice how you said, lets not quote from any thing else, including guru sahibs bani.

This is complete manmat, as a sikh of the guru we should first and foremost look at our gurus bani for advice and not our own mind. notice the differnece between a GURmukh and a MANmukh. Who cares what we think? all that is important is what guru sahib thinks. Guru sahib was perfect, and their path is also perfect. Our mind on the other hand is filled with countless faults

 
At 4:10 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hell yes I am tyaar be tyaar when I am naked in the shower! I am a Sikh of the Guru, the same Guru that said to hell with the caste system, that said God and me me and God are one! I am a Sikh that has long hair and does not eat meat because it is healthy NOT cause someone said so! If Guru Ji told you to cut your hair, would you? Not me, I would tell him to leave my home, thank you for coming. I know why I do this, Guru Ji, it is between me and my divinity. You have given me a guideline I now understand its meaning and have experienced its effect. It sounds to me like half of the people here would listen to Guru Ji if he came in person and said eat this meat and take off your turban. Kacheras and the other K's are up to your experience. If you follow them blindly and cannot see god in all, you cannot see god AT all. Chill, we are all God. Have your experience and then come back with your meaning, not some organization or some jetha's meaning. I am talking to all of you. Reply to this, tell us your own expereince, not bhai nand laal's or bhai manni singh's, they were different manifestations of Waheguru. do not go into historical facts or quote bhanis that is your own choice to learn give us what matters, give us your experience in your own words!
--Shabd Singh Khalsa
same as 2nd blog.
I wanted to get a rise out of those who see bad and good, and dont realize that the mind makes it so!

 
At 5:12 PM, Anonymous singh132 said...

Prahbu,

It's funny. I may be of a Punjabi background (and you are correct, I am in Canada, though not in my parents house), but it's YOU who's using the Punjabi debating techniques.

When someone in a Punjabi debate has no points left and has nothing further to add, they start to rant. Loudly and angrily. With no real substance or refutation of any argument, but just the hope that their anger will make others shut up.

Sorry Prabhu, doesn't work.

Do you know what bibek is? It's the ability to discern. Discern is synonomous with judge. We have to make judgements every day in life. If I want to hang out with people who will spiritually uplift me or bring me down. Decisions in every facet of life. If I choose not to associate with the adulterers and fornicators, does that mean I hate them? No. It means I don't go into the mud and dirty myself by associating with them. Because there is now an enlightened rule not to use Gurbani, I'll leave it to you to see how strongly Guru Sahib says to avoid manmukhs.

And then you seem to be really high on yourself for having grown up in an all white area. Here's some news: so did I. There were no coloured people in my school. There was one black kid and he was adopted by white parents. I survived. I don't even consider it all that much of an accomplishment. I was the first amritdhari, dastaar wearing person to graduate from my high school. I have since moved for school, but the area I currently now live in is also mainly white. I'm surviving and doing just fine Prabhu.

Then you bring up Asa Di Vaar. I suggest YOU read it more carefully. It says everything is jootha. It doesn't say to eat that jootha though. A Sikh still has to eat something "suchaa" or pure. So how is that possible. Asa Di Vaar answers that only those are "Soochay" who have Vahiguru in their hearts/minds. So if you want to eat pure food, clearly you eat from these people. Not from roadside vendors who drink/smoke and commit moral crimes.

And I'm really amused by the fact that people that talk about fanatics and hatred and stress on love are the same ones exhibiting the most anger and resentment. You wnat people to be open minded, but how open minded are you? You refuse to even consider the fact that you might be wrong.

You talk about love and tolerance. Great. Live it.

This is a debate on kakaars. Are you offended that I presented evidence that they should never be taken off? Should I have blindly agreed with you?

Prabhu, I don't doubt your intentions are good. But you come across as projecting the very things you condemn.

Shabd Singh Khalsa,

You wrote,

" am a Sikh that has long hair and does not eat meat because it is healthy NOT cause someone said so! If Guru Ji told you to cut your hair, would you? Not me, I would tell him to leave my home, thank you for coming. "

Well I guess that's where we differ. Everything I do is to please my Guru and every order of his is to be accepted. Being a Sikh requires total submission to the Guru. The Guru says something and there is no question at all. Guru Nanak told Guru Angad to eat a corpse when he was being tested. Guru Angad didn't tell him to "thank you for coming" he asked, "should I begin at the head or foot?"

Then you talk about we're all one with God. That's great for theory. Do you feel it in practice? Do you see the divine Jot everywhere? That's the stage a Sikh wants to be at. Not theoretical musing on being one, but the experience. That experience is only possible if we accept the words and hukam of the Guru totally with complete sumbission. Otherwise there are lots of people that talk about spirituality and other great sounding abstract concepts.

 
At 5:40 PM, Blogger Prabhu Singh said...

Just to be clear I didn't grow up in an all white area, I grew up in a 'no white' area, being the only white.
I have considered the other rehits and I have meditated on them for months and I have prayed to the Guru and I have received direct hukams from the Guru. This is why I don't accept those rehits. It's about following the Guru's hukams.
Gurpreet wrote the following words which I think apply to this discussion:

"Who cares what we think? all that is important is what guru sahib thinks. Guru sahib was perfect, and their path is also perfect. Our mind on the other hand is filled with countless faults "
I couldn't agree more!

The Guru did not mention who's rehit to follow, simply how important the rehit is. If you ask the Guru about your rehit, you receive the answer and then other people criticize you, who are you going to stand with? I stand with my Guru who gave me clear direction on specific questions which I asked.
For the purposes of learning, I want to know where the food comes from for certain people to eat? What if the street vendor is a saint and you reject their food because they are not Khalsa? Kabir was not Khalsa, but he was certainly a saint, would you eat from his plate? Guru Nanak was not Khalsa, but if he asked you to eat meat, would you?
Also to Himmat, I deleted that post because I was upset when I wrote it.
It's upsetting for me to see such harsh judgements from 'Sikhs.' That simply is not our role. Avoiding manmukhs means avoiding participation in their behaviors. If somebody you deem a manmukh is asking for your help are you going to say, you can't associate with them, it's against your religion?
Seva is part of the foundation that is our religion.
Singh123 states:
"Asa Di Vaar answers that only those are "Soochay" who have Vahiguru in their hearts/minds."
You take this to mean the people offering you food have to have WaheGuru in their hearts and mind, but how are you going to know that?
You can only know that for yourself, that is why all food is jutta until YOU yourself prays over it and thanks God for the gift. Not everybody receieves the gifts of food. Don't pass up the gifts of God, or if you do, please send the food you refuse to me because I know a lot of people who are really hungry and cannot afford to eat.

 
At 6:10 PM, Anonymous Singh132 said...

Prabhu,

I appreciate the change in tone. It's a lot more conducive to discussion.

You said Kabir jee and Guru Nanak were not Khalsa. Of course they were! Kabir jee calls himself a Khalsa in bani. I'm not allowed to post quotes, but the only time the word "Khalsa" comes in Bani, it comes when Kabir jee calls himself one. Guru Nanak was a Guru. There's nothing further to be said about it. You asked a paradoxical question on whether I would eat meat if Guru Nanak asked me to. Frankly, I would do anything if Guru Nanak asked me to. But he would never ask something and let it be done if it were against Gurmat. I have that much trust in my Guru. So he would never let me eat meat. When Guru Gobind Singh was escaping Machiwara Jungle being carried as Uch Da Pir, the Mughal Soldiers stopped them and to test whether they were Muslims, asked them to eat some halal meat. Guru Gobind Singh told Bhai Daya Singh to put take the meat, cover it and put his kirpan through it. When Bhai Daya Singh did so, Karah Parshad appeared. Guru Sahib did not let his Sikh eat something prohibited. This is a story from Kavi Santokh Singh.

Naam is only available from Guru Nanak. I'm not saying someone can't be good and be a non-Sikh. Of course they can. There are lots of them. But food prepared while reciting naam and bani is langar. Guru Sahib has told us that this is the food that we should eat. It is like amrit. That is why I choose to eat food only prepared by amritdharis (those who are strict in their rehit).

I am happy to share my food with anyone and I can help anyone in need. This is Seva. But it doesn't mean to become like those I help.

 
At 10:43 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr. Singh 123,
I asked you to give me your experience. NOT Guru Angad's or Guru Nanak's. Please, give me your experience. Enough attacking, start writing about your experience everyone. Sikh is a student. Your love for the Guru is profound, good. Now let us know YOU, not someone else.

"Then you talk about we're all one with God. That's great for theory. Do you feel it in practice? Do you see the divine Jot everywhere? That's the stage a Sikh wants to be at. Not theoretical musing on being one, but the experience. That experience is only possible if we accept the words and hukam of the Guru totally with complete sumbission. Otherwise there are lots of people that talk about spirituality and other great sounding abstract concepts."


It is strange. You question what I said as though it is not possible for me to see the divinity in others. I am no sage, saint, or theologeon. I am a student of life that has been given guidelines that I have questioned and come to understand. I am still questioning them every day. I am not theorizing. I am talking about the sach that I have found thus far in my existence. If you can't see god in all you cant see god at all. simple. I accept the words of the guru when i hear or take his hukham, sometimes it takes time to experience them. I rarely take them for face value but often I find the to be true for me after eperience. please, do not patronize me, what I said was my learning from experience. I still have not argued against anyone's point. Let's hear your experience. No one else's. Sat Nam.

--Shabd Singh Khalsa

 
At 10:58 PM, Blogger Palvinder said...

wjkk wjkf..i dont see this helping others..cause only those who have no faith question the guru and angad veerji rahbu veerji...hm..if i sound very harsh in the post or angry..well sorry..i wasnt..

well basiclly..i would like to tell and ask..if u would like to follow all Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji maharajs words..go on..there are other things that wasnt written in guru maharaj..like khandey pahul and other stuff..its something to consider..

guru granth sahib ji is written in raagas..but isnt written anywhere that u have to sing raag??i may have mistake jio..maaf karna ji..but i havent come tru any tuk?..
bhul chuk maaf..
wjkk wjkf!

 
At 11:25 PM, Blogger Angad Singh said...

gur fateh!

palvinder singh ji..if you do take time out to read the article i linked you ll probably understand..

as to mr singh 132..when we look and analyse history we have a large number of soucres, sort them accoriding to creditability and when these sources all point in one direction that is when we can safely conclude wht may have happened..

now did guru gobind singh cut the heads of those sikhs or of goats..it does not matter its of no consequence wht is of consequence is the amrit ceremony..

if your in school u should probably attend a class or too on ananlysis of historical evidence.

yes we are told to associate with sants..now tell me..can u pin point who is a sant and who is not...even a druggie is rab da banda..if you cant see that you are discriminating henna..

and like i mentioned in my earlier post who am i or who are you to call some one a manmuk ..or a moorakh etc..who are we to judge god's creations...yah if he or she is causing trouble in society we can understand you take steps to protect the society...

this is my last post here..i think i have tried enough to do my best to help my brothers to try to look at things in a different light ..i guess the time is not right..

to dharam..i dont know if its best to post on the other kakars..cause when it comes to kesh..its gonna be another hu ha with people saying keshi is a kakar not kesh..

guru ang sang!

 
At 5:56 AM, Blogger Palvinder said...

wjkk wjkf..angad veerji...wellim no one to tell this really..just no one..but just take this from a maha morakh..if the goat and head thing didnt give u any impontance then i can see y u say kakars can be taken off from the body..just cleary states something..and to bad..as if u say kesh as kakar..and the right kakar is keski..ur a great person..i think u talk about history veerji..i recomand u go into history back in 100 like 100 years back..then u will know wht happend...
this would also be ma last post..cause i dont see this going anywhere but to arguments.....
bhul chuk maaf jio..wjkk wjkf!

 
At 6:11 AM, Blogger Sifar said...

Whats the point of all this discussion? Coz, no one can change the way one thinks. Some are conservatives, some liberals. In the end it all come to what one believes in. I take showers like I used to when I didnot had amrit. I fly with my Kirpan in the checked baggage. But I still consider that I didnot disengaged myself from any rule or law that makes me a less of Amritdhari than others. I have seen Singhs who dress up in full Bana and then they do horrible things that are morally incorrect even for a common man, forget about what it means to an Amritdhari. This discussion will never have an end, and no one is going to emerge as a winner as none of can be 100% sure of what is it that is right or wrong. We all should try our best to be true Gursikh and keep an open mind and leave the issue of judgement to Guru.

 
At 7:09 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

You all are very funny. I can see Gurusikhs having very meaningful discusssion. Can you all prove this wrong- You can have more than two singhs/sikhs in one room/on even on one blog discussing a topic.
My fellow beings please give it a try.
Few Suggestions-
you can start the post by saying
Dear friend/brother/sister

Sarbjeet

 
At 7:59 AM, Blogger Sifar said...

Sarbjeet jee

Practice before you preach. I see that you didnot address your post as you want others to address. Double standards?

 
At 8:05 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

VJKK VJKF

Khalsa Ji, Whatever rehit you follow, do your best to adhere to it. You can advice people on their rehit but do not force it upon others. I know Himmat Singh mentioned that we shouldn't quote from Gurbaani etc.. but there is this Rehtnama that Guru Gobind Singh Ji said:

'Ta Te Rehit So Dhir Kar Rehai'

This is a message to all Sikhs, whatever rehit you follow, follow it in a disciplined manner. The word 'Dhir' actually highlights this. It is vital that all Sikhs follow Guru's Hukum to the letter.
We should also take into account that assimilating yourself with a jatha only categorizes you and often leaves you with a negative stigma. Who formed these Jathe? Guru Ji didn't formaulate any, but one: Khalsa! Why are making our own rules, we cannot pick n mix to suit our own lifestyle. If we begin to doubt Guru Ji's Hukum, then is this not our ego speaking?

Bhul Chuk Maaf Karna

H & I Singh Khalsa

 
At 8:27 AM, Anonymous singh132 said...

Angad, not to drag this issue, but I don't think I'm getting through to you. All the rehitnamas are saying not to part from kakaars. Either they are all fake and wrong, or maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't part from them.

 
At 10:14 AM, Blogger Prabhu Singh said...

The Akal Takht rehit does not say this!
Maybe just maybe this is a non-issue. There are so many other ways this discussion could be fruitful and positive. We could share our experiences of the kakkars and what they mean to each of us. How we feel with each of them. What is their spiritual, physical, symbolic, and practical meaning. This would certainly differ from one person to the next, but it would still be a nice discussion. If we remained civil and realized that not every Sikh is going to act alike, it's simply impossible.
Angad made a very good point that we should all consider. Some people believe that Guru Gobind Singh cut the heads of goats, but this belief doesn't take away from the meaning and significance of the Amrit. I believe Guru Gobind Singh cut the heads of the Panj, and I don't care whether or not others believe in it. This is what I was taught and it has a special meaning to me. I wouldn't argue with somebody who said goats were cut, because neither of us have proof. We only have faith.
When we leave this earth, will it matter that we had our kacheras around our ankles when washing our private parts, or will it matter that we served others? When we are living happy as Sikhs, in cherdi kala, will it matter what other people are doing?
I don't care what rehit other people follow. I got upset during this discussion because the things that upset me most were prevelant. People's different beliefs and practices don't upset me. What upsets me is judgements and fanaticism and misrepresentation of the Guru's Dharma. We have a rehit that doesn't mention the changing of kacheras one leg at a time, we have several, but we don't have a rehit that says it's okay to sing out of raag. Does this mean it's not okay to sing out of raag, or does it mean that the Guru trusted the Khalsa as his own, and allowed them to live with freedom and follow their inspiration within the confines of this beautiful Dharma.

 
At 10:17 AM, Blogger Prabhu Singh said...

Oh yeah woops...
Sarvjeet Singh, I pass uncle-ship of this discussion to you. I believe you are older than me?

 
At 11:02 AM, Anonymous Singh132 said...

Guaranteed that if this issue was referred to the Akal Takhat there would be a directive that kakaars should not be removed for things like sleeping or showers. I may actually write and ask for a reply.

 
At 11:23 AM, Blogger Prabhu Singh said...

Unfortunately your guaruntee means nothing. It simply won't happen!
The Akal Takht isn't there for this kind of miniscule idea that's important only to a few people. The 5 k's are important to everybody, if the Akal Takht limited and regulated their use and their meaning, then people would move further away from the Khalsa panth.
My kakkars are sacred to me, that is why I don't allow my kirpan to get lost or rusted in a lake. I don't want other people regulating what's sacred to me, that is the role of God and Guru!

 
At 2:27 PM, Blogger Sifar said...

Bhai Prabhu Singh jee...

I'm honored that you find me worth passing on this discussion. I will repeat what I said earlier. There is no point in taking it any further coz, the hardcore believers will not change their mind. And Bhai Prabhu, we are not here to change their mind. Right. Same way, they cannot change our mind too.... I will let them believe whatever they think is their way of handling this issue as long as they donot come and tell me that I am not as good a practicing sikh as they are. I donot believe in changing the Kacheara by sliping the new one and then taking the old one out. But I at the same time donot want to redicule the sikhs who do that as they are the Sikhs of the same Guru. No one can prove what is right. It is like the question, who came first, an egg or the chicken. When it is said that you are not supposed to separate the five 'Ks' from yourself, I will not translate it literally. I would say it means do not disrespect your Kakkars and do not abandon them like I have seen some sikhs become Amritdhari under pressuer, from family, wife, parents and later they are not into it so they abandon being Amritdhari which is totally incorrect. Taking Amrit under pressuer is not right in the first place itself. If one is not ready, just dont do it until you are ready. To all my brothers and sisters who are pro and anti on this issue, lets not pull legs of each other instead lets do something to benefit our religion so that we can benefit too. "Nanak Naam Chardi Kala, Tere Bhane Sarbat Da Bhala".

PS. The Veerjee who had told Bhai Joga's Sakhi, it is so much distorted. My request to him. Please check with a Granthi/Pathi in your area so that he can give you the un tainted version of the Sahki. I'm not trying to show down on you Veerjee, but I want you to know for yourself what the original Sakhi is. Yours is on the right track, but it is a lot different than what it is better known as.

PS 2. And Bhai Prabhu Singh jee... I just sent you the flyer of Miami Samagam, thinking just in case it becomes possible for you to come. But no problem if you can't. We will meet some place or the other. I treat this world to be very small place. Thanks for replying. I got your mail. I have posted the information on my blog so that if anyone else will be interested to come, they can. And all the best for your this weekend endeavor.

 
At 2:51 PM, Anonymous K Singh UK said...

Whether one keeps their kakaars on them at all times or not, i think its essential that the ones who dont realise there is nothing wrong in doing so.

While i totally agree with Prabhu Singh that the Rehitnamas cannot be considered bani or direct from Guru Ji but i must state that the writings by Gursikhs who were very close to Guru Ji like Bhai Nanad Lal cannot be totaly disregarded, even if they are only looked upon as a means to gaining a better understanding of Sikhs during Guru Ji's time, through the eyes of Bhai Nanad Lal.

 
At 3:29 PM, Blogger Prabhu Singh said...

I probably should have been more clear. I have a lot of respect for Bhai Nand Lal and his writings. I really appreciate the great Sikhs of the past. I only mean that if his rehitnama was meant for all, Guru Gobind Singh would have made it clear. We cannot compare one Sikh to another without being disrespectful, but there are other great Sikhs of the past who created rehitnamas that are different. This is why we should respect all.

 
At 3:33 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Can someone please tell the real true sakhi of bhai Jodha Singh? I am really interesting in knowing.
thanks

 
At 3:39 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

One thing is forsure. All rehitnamas are the same. People need to look at the context of the rehitnamas properly though. Like the thing about only eating from the hands of a amritdhari as the AKJ singhs do. This is a very beautiful thing. The reason for this is that the feelings of the person go into the food they making. So it indirectly has an mental and spiritually effect on you. There I think what the rehitnama means to say is that eating from an non-amritdhari or unpure person can harm you so you should be careful who you eat from. But only people people following the Sikhi lifestyle with full love and devotion can understand this properly.
Bhuk Chuk Maf
fateh

 
At 4:02 PM, Anonymous K Singh UK said...

i went through a period when i regarded bibek as anti-gurmat & something a Brahmin would have done. At the very least what an Ego one must get by doing so.

Is was only by interacting with some who maintain bibek that i realised why one may choose to do it. im not saying i would, i have enough ego as it is. but i no longer judge those who do. its between them and Guru Ji.

as long as a bibeki didnt look down on me, or tell me im not Sikh.

Its not only some AKJ's that keep bibek, but also some Taksali's & Nihungs.

 
At 6:03 PM, Blogger Sifar said...

Anonymous said...
Can someone please tell the real true sakhi of bhai Jodha Singh? I am really interesting in knowing.
thanks

3:33 PM

Anonymous, here goes the Bhai Joga's Sakhi...(Actually it is Joga, not Jodha)

Joga as a young boy of maybe about 15 came to Guru Gobind Singh Mahaaraj’s darbar. He was so overcome on seeing Satguru ji and Guru Sahib asked “who are you?” He replied “I am Joga” Guru Sahib asked “tu kehda Joga” (who’s joga are you i.e. who are you worthy of?) Joga replied “Mein tera Joga Guru ji, Guru ji mein tere joga” i.e. I am yours/ I am worthy of you; Satguru ji replied, “tu mera Joga, Mein tere joga”. Guru ji asked Joga to stay with Him and become part of the Khalsa thus he became known as Bhai Joga Singh.
Love grew between Guru ji and Sikh and Bhai Joga Singh loved being with Guru Sahib.
Several years passed and Bhai Joga Singh’s parents came to take him home, they thought he should now be married as he had come of age. They went to ask permission from Guru Sahib to take him back home and Guru ji gave the go ahead on the condition that Bhai Joga Singh was to return whenever he was asked, he would be called when the Khalsa needed him regardless of where he was and what he was doing he should come. They agreed to this and headed off back to his village.
So the wedding preparations began and sure enough the wedding day itself arrived.
During the ceremony, only two of the lavaan had been completed when a messenger from Guru Sahib arrived and presented Bhai Joga Singh with a letter requesting that he return as he was needed by the Khalsa. His family pleaded with him that he stay and at least complete the lavaan as Guru Ji had gave him permission to leave to get married; Bhai Joga Singh was adamant that he would go back to Guru Sahib as nothing was more important than his Guru.
On the way back to Anandpur Sahib he thought to himself how cool he was, how no one else would leave their own marriage just like that, no sooner had he had this thought when he became enticed by a prostitute. He rode towards her house and contemplated the thought of entering. As he was the physical image of the Khalsa, of Guru ji, he thought he would bring great shame to Guru Sahib if he was seen entering the house. On tying to enter he came across a guard standing there so he paused and backed away, he tried four times to enter the building but could not get past the guard seeing him.
He realised how weak he was being and rode back to Guru ji.
On entering the divaan he payed his respects to Guru Sahib and heard the sangat commenting on how tired Guru Ji looked. Guru ji asked Bhai Joga to explain where he was last night, as the incident unfolded Guru ji revealed that He Himslef was the guard, and that They were there to stop Bhai Joga Singh from entering and sinning.
Bhai Joga Singh fell at Guru ji’s charan and begged for forgiveness. Guru Sahib reminded him of what he had said before, “'Guru Ji mein tere joga” (I am worthy only of You Guru ji). Guru Sahib said “because you belong to me - I belong to you Bhai Joga ji, I belong to you! Mein tere joga!”

To save the typing, I took it from the web..... But this is the version that is close to real Sakhi... I mean as most people know...

 
At 10:03 PM, Anonymous Shabd Singh Khalsa said...

Sarvjeet Singh Ji. You're wise to say what you said about not being able to change people's minds. I agree. I have asked people to give their personal experiences and what they have come to mean regarding their personal rehit. I'd still like to hear that.
Sat Nam
SHabd Singh Khalsa

 
At 11:41 PM, Blogger Prabhu Singh said...

Thank you Sarvjeet Singh. This is how the story was relayed to me. If you hadn't posted it, I would have done so :-)
One of the Chachaji's had to do it. So many years of meditation between the two of us.
I can't say I'm not disappointed to see that people are still judging who are real Sikhs and who has love for the Guru:
"But only people people following the Sikhi lifestyle with full love and devotion can understand this properly."
I respect other peoples rehit. I think Bibek is cool for those who do it. Just trying to force it on me or assuming that I can't understand it because I don't have love for the Guru is dispresectful.
Guru Nanak could eat whatever he wanted. With naam anything can be transmuted. This is why I spoke of praying over the food. The whole time I've understood and appreciated the other point of view, but if you cannot understand my point of view, or life experience it's not worth arguing.
Thank you all for the discussion.

 
At 11:58 PM, Blogger Angad Singh said...

Gur fateh JI..

i know i said that was my last post but i see things getting more civil now..so i post..

Palvinder singh ji hope you have read the articles. In addition i would humbly request ou to take a hukam nama and ask the guru for the answer or when u try to bring out a point mentioned in the Sri Guru Gran th Sahib, dont look only at one line look at the entire shabad. sloak/pauri..why is say this is also menitoned in the articles.

Jas 132..coming to your point that all rehat maryads mention not to take yr kakars off the body..

yes that may mentioned in a whole lot of places.. now there are 2 things..1 go beyond the surface..and 2 look at authenticity of the rehatnamas/rehat maryadas on the whole..

if you look at taksal's maryada..which is also supposed to be an old/orignal maryada..then how come it mentions things like
"you should not watch dirty tapes"..I din know they had tv's and VHS back then.. pointing out these errors is not to poke fun but it is to give you an idea as to how things get distorted..thus personally when i listen to things or read things that i believe are not quite i check with the shri guru granth sahib ji ..

personally i agree with veerji Sarvjeet that it means dont to discard/disrespect them..by leaving them lying around somewhere and not taking care of them...anyways my opnion is best kept to myself..

guru ang sang hove

 
At 4:36 AM, Blogger Sifar said...

Glad to see the understanding between the brothers. Come on. We are sikhs of the same Guru. Difference in opinion is one thing, but we can still live in harmony. Both the groups, thank you for the participation in this discussion and also thank you for respecting each other.

I always remember this. I will not treat someone the way I will not like to be treated.

Raaj Karega Khalsa.....

 
At 5:36 AM, Blogger Palvinder said...

wjkk wjkf..veerji angad..well if its ur humble request..then i should do so..i maybe wrong..but i dont know i nvr come to any of gurbani tuk that says u have to sing in raag..but to clear my doubts let the pefect guru give the hukam..we will see wht maharaj has to say..wjkk wjkf jio..

 
At 10:07 AM, Anonymous Singh132 said...

Angad Singh,

Taksal's Maryada is not claimed to be a historical document. It was admittedly written by Baba Gurbachan Singh and added to by Baba Kartar Singh.

Although Taksal claims to be descended from Baba Deep Singh (I have issues with this), they do not claim that their maryada was written at that time.

Finally, there is a big difference between a rehit maryada and a rehitnama. A rehitnama is an old historical document while a rehit maryada is something different and is in general the code of conduct a Sikh lives by (which always has certain things clarified as situations arise like abortion or new technologies).

So my point remains the same: all old rehitnamas say the same thing. Kakaars should not be removed.

 
At 10:30 AM, Blogger Angad Singh said...

prabhu singh ji can u please check with parvinder ji how authentic these rehit namas are and wht do they exactly mean..

also jas 132 can u tell me where you have read these rehit namas i would like to read and understand wht it says..

i say this not cause i dont want to believe what you say .. i ask this cause seriously i no longer believe that old is pure..esp when its not bani..

i would really like to read the rehit namas..

gur fateh!

 
At 10:35 AM, Blogger Angad Singh said...

another the thing i came across..ther 21 different rehit maryadas we have have been around for less than 100 yrs..and scholars sat down and with the help of the rehat namas came up with the rehyat maryadas..

so my question is how many such rehitnamas are there..and when were they written..who where the people who wrote it..and if they have any difference in them then why is it so..

 
At 12:42 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

i think u guys have too much time on your hands. There are so many bigger issues to look at & spend your energies on...this discussion is neither constructive or forward thinking. Everyone is trying to justify themselves and be the one who is "right". If in the hour of need or trying times that the sikhs have faced and are facing, if issues like this were raised then all they would be doing would be fighting and arguing amongst themselves. I'm sorry to be negative and but why waste your precious God given time.

 
At 12:44 PM, Anonymous singh132 said...

Angad Singh,

As I said before, there is a BIG difference between rehitnama and rehit maryada.

Rehit Maryada is the code of conduct that an amritdhari is supposed to live by. There are different opinions on many aspects (kakaars being case and point). Different Jathas do have different Rehit Maryadas. Clearly not all of them are right so there are many practices that are objectionable and have crept in due to different influences.

Rehitnamas on the other hand are hundreds of year old documents written by Gursikhs. These rehitnamas have been adulterated somewhat as well, but generally speaking where they all say the same thing on any one issue, they're usually right. Prominent Rehitnams include Bhai Nand Lal, Bhai Daya Singh, Bhai Desa Singh, Bhai Chaupa Singh, Bhai Prehlad Singh. These were written in the 1700s. The main book on these documents is Piara Singh Padam's "rehitname" which is a very common book. Most Sikh libraries have a copy.

Recently WH Mcleod has done a study and translation of many rehitnamas which is called Sikhs of the Khalsa A History of the Khalsa Rahit.

Taksali Maryada, AKJ Maryada are not Rehitnamas. They are rehit maryadas. They are not historical documents. I hope I've been able to make the difference clear.

 
At 6:03 PM, Blogger Prabhu Singh said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 6:35 PM, Blogger Palvinder said...

wjkk wjkf..to be fare..its also hypocrisy if u ask me..u talk about ppl cant prove thier belives..well i only would like to ask one thing..prabhu veerji..plz quote a tuk from GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI that u have to take kahnde pahul amrit to be a sikh...and plz state to me in maharaj ji..that says THERE ARE 5 KAKARS A SIKH SHOULD WEAR!??plz do..will be waiting..just from maharaj not from else where rite..then we will see whts the use of the rehat nama..and bascilly..angad veerji and prabhu veerji.talking about raag kirtan. i havent taken hukamnama..i will later this evening..so we just have to see wht maharaj ji says..maybe maharaj ji would enlighten this morakh tho..as i said i know nothing,..still learning..well thats all i guess..wjkk wjkf..

 
At 6:36 PM, Blogger Palvinder said...

oh and yea parbhu veerji..another thing..where in guru maharaj says u have to bula gurfateh when u see another sikh ji..would appriciat that..:>..wjkk wjkf

 
At 8:49 PM, Anonymous singh132 said...

Prahbu,

I've said this before, but I'll say it again. Your attitude is really quite shocking. You talk about fanatacism and hatred but the only person to freak out on this thread is you. You are the only one to have posted ridiculously angry messages.

As for no proof: you have proof from various sources. You have proof from all the different jathebandis in the Panth. You have proof from Bhai Daya Singh, the Jathedar of the original Punj Pyaaray chosen by Guru Gobind Singh.

I have never dismissed raag and am quite an admirer. But I was wondering, they must do strict raag kirtan at the Dodra Smagams you go to? You must do strict raag at the Gurdwara in Espanola too.

If you have directions from the Guru, then tell me, can't others have it as well? Or are you the "Chosen One"? Why are your directions any more relevant than mine?

At any rate, I've shared my views with you in the past and I know it makes no impact on you. But honestly, with absolutely no malice I'm just saying your attitude is really not productive.

Tolerance and acceptance aren't just talking the talk. It's walking the walk.

 
At 10:59 PM, Blogger Prabhu Singh said...

Singh132,
You're right.
I want to apologize to all those who I may have offended. This discussion got me upset, which doesn't represent who I am or what I believe in at all.
My fanaticism lies in wishing other Sikhs would not question the love people have for the Guru.
It was never the issue of the 5 k's that upset me, but that people's convictions in their way of life, leads to the criticism of others and the belief that their way is perfect. Everybody's way is perfect in the way that God is perfect.
I think I enjoy stirring up the real feelings people have for their beliefs. But I need to make sure I don't get upset or react when I do get upset.
I just think it's the same level of devotion that people believe what they believe. My love for my kirpan means that I don't let it injure myself or get rusted in the water. Other people's love for their kirpan means it never leaves their body. I respect both points of view, I need to learn not to get upset when people don't respect both points of view.
In the end you are all my brothers (I don't know if we have any sisters here). Unfortunately this discussion left me with bad feelings and a few other things that are too experiencial or subtle to explain here. Again I want to apologize to Himmat Singh and the others. I'm going to try and stay away from this issue in the future.
WaheGuru Ji Ka Khalsa, WaheGuru Ji Ki Fateh!

 
At 6:08 AM, Anonymous Sachya Singh said...

Prabhu, your whole argument is without base. Have you heard of the term MANMAT? You are showing clear and an example of MANMAT.. your own MAT. Such a shame to see you speak so rudely with learned Sikhs who are so spiritually intact. Think to yourself, You MAYBE wrong. Be afriad son. May the Guru show you lifght and LOVE for "punjabi" SIKHS.

 
At 9:36 PM, Blogger Prabhu Singh said...

Sachya Singh you are slandering me and attacking my character. The reason I started writing on this discussion is because people were misrepresenting facts. It has nothing to do with people being Punjabi, take a look at my blog and you'll probably see more Punjabi Sikhs than Americans and I don't even live near any Punjabi people!
Unfortunately you know nothing of me or my level of education, devotion, or what I've come to know from meditation.
Read my first post and understand what I came here for.
Do you feel that it's baseless to point out that a certain quote is not in the Dasam Granth?
Understand this, I am the son of Guru Gobind Singh and I will not fear anything.
This discussion is not worth threatening me or slandering me. You have done a favor to me with your attack.

Sorry again to Himmat, I probably should have stayed out of this discussion in the first place. But then it would have been mostly one-sided :-)

 
At 1:08 AM, Anonymous Shabd Singh Khalsa said...

Sachya, You sound like a born again christian.
I didn't know there were such close-minded Sikh. Enough of your nonsense, offer something constructive or don't offer it. Give your experience, don't cut someone elses's because of your insecurity and thus fanaticism. Chill. Shanti.

 
At 6:51 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nanak, Kachadiyaan siyon toR, dhoond sajjan sant pakiyaan||
(Break off from spiritually dead people and find friends in Sants who are pure Gursikhs)

 
At 1:10 PM, Blogger Otpreka Singh said...

Waheguru. 5 Kakkars are angs (limbs) of our bodies.

Waheguru, ones beliefs are effected by past karms.

people do what they do because of there karms. 'Hukamai Andar Sabh Ko , Bar Hukam Na koei'

if someone was not suppose to remove a Kakkar after taking amrit and making a commitment to Guru Sahib, than they will have to answer to Guru Sahib.

Tyaar Bar Tyaar Khalsa Ji

Chardi Kala

 
At 1:18 PM, Anonymous Shabd Singh Khalsa said...

Oh, Lame.

 
At 2:37 PM, Blogger Shinda said...

Looks like Singh132 took this one. Good job.

Himmat Singh, I think its time for the next part in your mini series, I wonder if that will stir up as much debate.

 
At 10:55 PM, Anonymous Shabd Singh Khalsa said...

Took what?

 
At 7:39 PM, Blogger Angad Singh said...

shinda

lol took wht just cause he refuses to see other people's point of view i stopped bothering..he tells me book is written by mecleod..go and search on him and go read all the post i made dude..

 
At 1:57 PM, Blogger Shinda said...

I said its done, because everyone seems to be going in circles and Singh132 seems to have refuted all claims, by far.

Maybe I'm looking at things wrong, but seems like he answered all questions ever posed to him.

Just my take on things. (As for McCleod, been there and done that.)

 
At 2:15 PM, Blogger Himmat Singh Khalsa said...

I disagree that Singh132 has refuted all the points. You are so blind to say that! It is clear that everyone who is in this discussion has their own views and they are thying to make others agree with them. Please, Shinda, open your eyes and read the comments again, you will see this. I think this discussion is over.
Also, I am not expecting a reply to this. I am not arguing over anything, I am stating what I have observed and I have made my suggestions.
Peace
Sat Nam

 
At 4:16 AM, Blogger deep kaur khalsa said...

"REHIT PYARI MUJ KO SIKH PYARAY NAHI..."

"JO THUO PREM KHELAN KA CHAAO, SIRR THAR THALI GALEE MOREH AAVO..."

GIVE YOUR HEAD AND THEN TAKE IT BACK...? :(

Question yourself about the above and then ask yourself who do you love more...Your Guru Or Yourself..THINK very Carefully!

Any bhuls maaf khalsa ji
Amandeep Kaur Khalsa

 
At 4:16 AM, Blogger deep kaur khalsa said...

"REHIT PYARI MUJ KO SIKH PYARAY NAHI..."

"JO THUO PREM KHELAN KA CHAAO, SIRR THAR THALI GALEE MOREH AAVO..."

GIVE YOUR HEAD AND THEN TAKE IT BACK...? :(

Question yourself about the above and then ask yourself who do you love more...Your Guru Or Yourself..THINK very Carefully!

Any bhuls maaf khalsa ji
Amandeep Kaur Khalsa

 
At 8:34 PM, Anonymous Shabd Khalsa said...

Your Guru and your Self are one.

 
At 3:22 AM, Blogger deep kaur khalsa said...

If we are one, ek jot which is true that youve said, then shall i go aorund saying I Am God. Think about it guru ji's hukum is simple, we akl trying to cut corners...vaheguru, what was the point of vaisakhi then, why did Guru Gobind Singh try and make khalsa stand out, to see todays sikhs ..vaheguru bhalla karan all me can say.

 
At 9:58 AM, Blogger Angad Singh said...

god resides within you..does not mean you are god..your arguement clearly does not hold..

and none of us are saying we dont want to be khalsa's of the guru..we never claimed that..

 
At 9:59 AM, Blogger Angad Singh said...

if you are in tune with god..you can be one with god..u cant be god..hope u see the fine line

 
At 2:57 AM, Blogger deep kaur khalsa said...

vahegurooo..

why cut corners regarding the panj kakaars then.
theres no use arguing.

understand the value of our kakkarsa and then say my argument doesnt hold, and some of r guys does, saying "hm ...lets where em at such and such time!"

absolute nonsense

vaheguru bhalla karan.

 
At 2:58 AM, Blogger deep kaur khalsa said...

man thu jot saroop hai apna muul pechan.

angad bro gurkirpa i know that.

 
At 2:50 PM, Blogger Himmat Singh Khalsa said...

I am not talking baout cutting corners with the kakkars, I am just trying to express my feelings about people forcing fanatical views on others. That is what leads to people cutting corners. Anyway, what other people do shouldn't affect you, this post was to discuss what peoples' experiences were and to get rid of the corrupting fanaticisms.

 
At 12:13 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Okay, here goes.

The kakkars are a worthy topic and should be discussed. Without discussion, it becomes blind faith. In my opinion, no Guruji, including the Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, would want a "blind" Sikh. Sikhi enlightens so by that token, it is bright and needs thought and discussion to maintain its true meaning and soul.

The "one leg" kachera thing just makes me laugh. It seems kind of silly. But it does open my eyes so I guess it is a good thing. And it does work for some to strengthen their relationship with their soul and Guruji.

One thing that I didn't see when scrolling through most, but not all, of the posts is that no one talks about sex in relationship to living the life of a householder. In my mind, kaam is the negative side of lust. Sex and "making love" with your spouse is not kaam. As a householder, it is my duty to create a loving relationship with my partner. One component of many is having sex. It creates a very unique connection. By duty, I don't mean that I have sex becaue I have to. I "make love" with my spouse and I enjoy it. Partly because I am fostering one of the most important bonds to me personally and as a householder, following Guruji's path. That's besides procreating, which can and does happen in the act.

To me, kacheras have a physiological effect on the body. Equally as important is the effect that they have on the mind. They represent not enganging in kaam in any form: mental, physical, emotional or spiritual. A person can have a mental and emotional affair but never physical. I've seen it. It is a reminder to stay contained and respectful. It is the physical reminder that all but your spouse are father/mother, sister/brother, daughter/son.

 
At 3:14 PM, Blogger Himmat Singh Khalsa said...

Thank you very much, Anon. I am greatful that someone who has experienced it has explained this aspect of the kachhera. This is the kind of comment I wanted to see.

WAHEGURU

 
At 9:12 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh do come on, all. The Gurus all taught us against blind fanaticism. When you ascribe a 'magic' quality to Kachhera, you make what is a sign of chastity into an object of idolatry. The 5 K's were given for a reason. The Kachhera were given so that in every step of our lives we may remember to be chaste. If one is wearing Kachhera but has a mind full of lustful thoughts, what is its value? The Kachhera is a SIGN of an inward disposition - that of purity of heart and intention. I do not believe that Guru expects us to follow blindly on any matter, nor to make anything, even the 5 K's, an object of idolatry. In each of the 5 K's we need to look beyond the outer symbol (i.e., physical manifestation) to the inner significance (i.e., real meaning). If, for instance, I have taken Amrit, and some time later I need to have an EKG, and the nurse needs to shave some of my chest hair to attach the EKG receptors (as hapenned to me several weeks ago), I have not committed a sin because I allowed some of my bodily hair to be removed for a medical reason. Nor would a person having brain surgery be expected (nor allowed!) not to have his or her hair removed from the incision area prior to surgery. The 5 K's were given to help US - in remembering our identity, in remembering to live a life of purity of thought, word, deed, and intention. I daresay that if we let our lives be ruled by the 5 K's rather than by the intelligence and learning that Guru has given us we have become like children who do not ever grow up. The outer manifestation is a sign of inward disposition, not vice versa.

Just IMHO.

 
At 11:21 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why do sikhs have and wear the five K's

N

 
At 12:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Great site

http://arthritis-relief.lysog.info arthritis relief
http://leather-chair.lysog.info leather chair
http://lucchese-boot.malig.info lucchese boot
http://toshiba-part.malig.info toshiba part
http://home-treadmill.malig.info home treadmill
http://turbo-tax.malig.info turbo tax
http://born-shoe.asapdeals.com born shoe
http://stretch-film.bucksathome.com stretch film
http://tv-stand.asapdeals.com tv stand
http://jet-pump.casinogamefactory.com jet pump
http://nfl-jerseys.1timesex.com nfl jerseys
http://party-poker-online.boulevardprivates.com party poker online
http://charlotte-job.asapdeals.com charlotte job
http://porch-swing.eurocarexpert.com porch swing
http://kohler-plumbing.1timesex.com kohler plumbing

Thanks.

 
At 6:21 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi sexy girls | sexy webcam videos | live chat
xanax cheap xanax buy xanax online phentermine buy phentermine online phentermine cheap tramadol buy tramadol online tramadol cheap levaquin buy levaquin online levaquin cheap lnorvasc buy sex online babe online casino online casino online
lroulette online blackjack online lpoker online phentermine online xanax xanax buy phentermine phentermine buy phentermine cheap | live chat
for fun

 
At 12:56 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cepasa amigos ))
Aciphex
Aciphex
http://www.yeshuanet.com/docs/images/Aciphex/index.html
-----------------------------------------------------
Tramadol
http://www.yeshuanet.com/docs/images/Tramadol/index.html
Tramadol
-----------------------------------------------------
Bentyl
http://www.yeshuanet.com/docs/images/Bentyl/index.html
Bentyl
thx for u

 
At 10:59 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

thi si a bummer website ty

 
At 11:01 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

i h8 this web so ansew this question what are the 5ks or have a sex

 
At 11:03 AM, Anonymous losr of porn said...

hi i h8 every 1

 
At 1:09 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

[center][url=http://www.viagra-billig.medsjoy.biz][img]http://www.viagrakaufen.enjoymeds.biz/kaufen_cialis.jpg[/img][/url][url=http://www.viagra-billig.medsjoy.biz][img]http://www.viagrakaufen.enjoymeds.biz/kaufen_levitra.jpg[/img][/url][url=http://www.viagra-billig.medsjoy.biz][img]http://www.viagrakaufen.enjoymeds.biz/kaufen_viagra.jpg[/img][/url][/center]
[b]CIALIS KAUFEN EUR 1.10 pro pille >>> Jetzt Kaufen! <<< REZEPTFREI BESTELLEN CIALIS CIALIS alternativ[/b]
[b]CIALIS KAUFEN CIALIS BILLIG CIALIS potenzhilfe[/b]
http://www.duoblogger.de/members/cialispro.html
[u][b]KAUFEN CIALIS OHNE REZEPT[/b][/u]
[url=http://www.immobilienforum.de/members/billigcialis.html]PREISVERGLEICH CIALIS[/url] - BILLIG CIALIS Rezeptfrei
[b]CIALIS KAUFEN CIALIS Online Billig Kaufen CIALIS versand[/b]
[url=http://www.naturforum.de/members/billigcialis.html]KAUFEN CIALIS OHNE REZEPT[/url] - CIALIS REZEPTFREI KAUF
[b]CIALIS KAUFEN CIALIS OHNE REZEPT PFIZER CIALIS[/b]
[url=http://my.prostreetonline.com/member/CialisKaufen]CIALIS BESTELLEN[/url] - CIALIS KAUFEN
[b]CIALIS KAUFEN CIALIS CIALIS Nederland[/b]

 
At 8:09 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I will immediately grab your rss feed as I can't to find your email subscription link or e-newsletter service. Do you've
any? Kindly permit me know in order that I may subscribe.

Thanks.

Look at my web page cheap health insurance

 
At 4:55 AM, Blogger Rashmi S said...

Head hunters in India
Head hunters in Bangalore
Consultancy in Bangalore
Serviced Apartments in Bangalore
SEO Services in Bangalore
SEO Services in India

 

Post a Comment

<< Home